Last Updated on April 17, 2024

In this episode of Journey to the Sunnyside, we’re excited to welcome Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator and bestselling author of ‘Never Split the Difference.’

In this episode, Chris reveals how his high-stakes negotiation techniques can be effectively used to handle peer pressure related to alcohol.

He’ll break down these strategies that you can use to confidently navigate discussions with friends, family, and even yourself. Tune in to learn how to turn challenging conversations into positive and supportive interactions. 

View all streaming options here.

Full Transcript

Mike Hardenbrook:
00:00

Welcome to Journey to the Sunnyside, the podcast where we have thoughtful conversations to explore the science of habits, uncover the secrets to mindful living, and, of course, inspire your own mindful drinking journey. This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the number one alcohol moderation platform. And if you could benefit from drinking a bit less, head on over to sunnyside.co to get a free 15 day trial. I’m your host, Mike Hardenbrook, published author, neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert. Today, I’m very excited to welcome Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator and best selling author of Never Split the Difference.

Mike Hardenbrook:
00:39

In this episode, Chris reveals how high stakes negotiation techniques can be effectively used to handle peer pressure related to alcohol. He’ll break down these strategies that you can use to confidently navigate discussions with friends, family, and even yourself. Tune in to learn how to turn challenging conversations into positive and supportive interactions.

Mike Hardenbrook:
01:10

Okay. Today, I’m really excited about this one. I have Chris Voss with us here on Journey to the Sunnyside. Chris, thanks for coming on.

Chris Voss:
01:17

Hey. I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Mike Hardenbrook:
01:20

Well, you have an incredible background, and it goes back many years. And so I kinda wanna start off with a story. Can you share one of your favorite stories when it comes to negotiation reaching back to your very, seasoned past?

Chris Voss:
01:38

Well, the first real, serious negotiation ever got into a bank robbery with hostages at the Chase Manhattan Bank in, in Brooklyn at the time. And, bank robberies with hostages, was actually negotiations a rare event. Usually, the bad guys are long gone before the police can’t show up. They know we’re on the way. And if they if they’re still there when we get there usually, it’s quite possibly suicide by cop situation.

Chris Voss:
02:10

So the classic, bargaining for hostages with who wanna get away. Well, it happens in the movies all the time. It’s really rare event. And, what day of the week was it? I think it was it was a Friday morning.

Chris Voss:
02:24

One Friday morning, actually. Because I remember I had the next day off, because the next day was my son’s birthday. And it was a Saturday, and I was gonna take a fishing. Plus, also, the NYPD detectives, they held a talked to the press, had some more press follow-up the next day, which is a weekend, then and I was off, so I wasn’t at fault. But, bank robbery with hostages and, bad guys on the inside thought they were gonna get away before the police showed up and didn’t.

Chris Voss:
02:54

And it was it was a great negotiation. The first bank robber that surrendered surrendered to me personally out in front of the bank. And it was a great team effort. You know? Everything works best in a system.

Chris Voss:
03:08

The team is a system. I think the life is a system. Your calendar is a system. The clock is a system. And the critical moments in the negotiations I’m I’m a coachable person.

Chris Voss:
03:20

If nothing else, I’m coachable, and I take initiative. Somebody handed me a note because they heard things, and what the bank robber was saying that nobody else really heard and made some serious pivots. I was I was working on the bank robber to let a hostage go, and one of the negotiators listening in, They got instinct that this guy wanted to come out. And so I got the note that, that said asking for who wants to come out. So I stopped working on the hostage, and I said, do you wanna come out?

Chris Voss:
03:51

And the guy says, I don’t know how I do it, which is a great big giant. Yes. If you if you can if you can lay the groundwork for me getting out of here, I’m coming out. And, it was a great thing. We got all the all the hostages out, all the bank robbers surrendered.

Chris Voss:
04:08

Took about 12 hours, and it was it was, once in a lifetime of that.

Mike Hardenbrook:
04:15

Wow. That’s incredible. Was there a time in your life that led you to this point? Like, did you say I wanna be a negotiator, or was it just something that, like, unfolded? Was there any, like, moment in time where you were just like, yes.

Mike Hardenbrook:
04:28

I’m very good at this, and this is where I’m going?

Chris Voss:
04:30

No. No. Like, my original plan was to be a cop at a police department, and I wanted to be on the SWAT team. So, you know, I consider myself a medium sized dude. You know, a lot of people much bigger and much more dangerous than me on the street.

Chris Voss:
04:52

And so I decided to sharpen my odds. For whatever reason, you know, I thought martial arts instead of boxing. When I was in college and I ripped my knee apart, had had knee reconstruction. And then ultimately, when I was first office, FBI Pittsburgh, I was on a SWAT team there. But then when I got to New York, I hurt my knee again, had another knee reconstruction.

Chris Voss:
05:14

And thought, you know, it’s that’s a lot of fun, but I I can only get hurt so many times. And they we had negotiators. The negotiators always went along. I didn’t know what they did. I figured it didn’t look hard.

Chris Voss:
05:27

You know, how hard could it be? And it wasn’t until after, I was trained. And before I got trained, I volunteered on a suicide hotline because I was as pointed out to me by the negotiation team leader in New York. I was eminently unqualified to become a negotiator. I had no qualifications, whatsoever.

Chris Voss:
05:50

When I volunteered on the suicide hot hotline, that that really when I kinda caught the bug to, influence people just based on words.

Mike Hardenbrook:
05:59

Yeah. Do you think it was a human omen of it, or did you like the challenge? Was it the impact that you were making, or was it a mix of everything?

Chris Voss:
06:07

Yeah. It was it was all the above. I was astonished at how quickly you could influence people with empathy. Not sympathy, not compassion. Empathy is a very drawn, very fine, but very clear lines.

Chris Voss:
06:25

Empathy, the the focus really is, you demonstrate that you understand. You neither agree nor disagree. And you don’t have to feel it. You have no common ground required. Just demonstrate that you understand.

Chris Voss:
06:37

And when they when I learned that on the hotline, the astonishing thing about it was every call lasted 20 minutes or less. You get there the 1st day, and they say, you’re gonna have a time limit for 20 minutes on your calls. And your reaction to that is, now, I mean, you hear these stories about people talking to somebody who’s suicidal all night long. Richard Branson in, in his first book, losing my virginity. I remember reading.

Chris Voss:
07:08

He did some crisis intervention work in his younger days, and he’d spend the night talking to people. And, 20 minutes, and they and they said, yeah. As a matter of fact, if you do it right, it’ll take less time than that. And when I saw the effectiveness of that sort of influence, that was when I was really bit by the bug.

Mike Hardenbrook:
07:27

Yes. I mean, I I remember going back to my entrepreneurial career, and I picked up the book how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. And it seemed so straightforward, yet I wasn’t practicing it. It made such a big impact in my career, in my business development partnerships, and I’ll just continue to go back to it and use it. At one point, when you were a negotiator and you came out of your career or maybe this was during your career, did you start thinking these are everyday, every person kind of tactics and strategies that people can apply.

Mike Hardenbrook:
08:04

Was there a moment that you just started thinking about this?

Chris Voss:
08:07

I remember thinking about a lot on the hotline thing, and my thought was really, like, why is it just have to be people in crisis that benefit from empathy? Why can’t it be the people and the work with, the people, in in your personal life? And so I started applying it, and it was just really reading people’s emotions and articulating them back, what what emotions you saw. And I remember one time talking to this young lady in New York, professional colleague. She said that you’re reading my mind, and all I was reading was her emotions because emotions are there.

Chris Voss:
08:48

I mean, they’re in your face. They’re in your tone of voice. There’s all this massive information. And I started applying it in my personal and professional life, and there are nuances to it, that, cause you to have to adapt to it. You know, the NYPD is sort of famous for this stuff work with works with hostages.

Chris Voss:
09:09

Just don’t do it at home. And my answer to that is something about that sounds wrong. And what I found was you’ve got to adapt it to the perspective of the people at home, which takes a little more work. But, yeah, it was on the hotline. I I thought this has got to apply everyday life, and and it does.

Mike Hardenbrook:
09:30

Yes. Talk to me a little bit about empathy because I find this one particularly difficult to do without coming across, like, inauthentic or patronizing somebody?

Chris Voss:
09:41

It’s practice, expanding the skill set, like, in the black swan, method, you know, or or the purchase negotiation. We took the FBI’s 8 hostage negotiation skills and adapted them in into business. It’s very close to what the FBI was all along. And the crazy thing about that and and probably why, you know, it takes some practice or some instruction, actually, I went to Harvard Law School’s negotiation course as a student in 2004. I was still with the FBI, and I and they talked a lot about what, was referred to as active listening.

Chris Voss:
10:25

I think that’s a poor term for it. But one of the professors up there said active listening is a stealth weapon of effective negotiation. And I remember, it was Bob Borden. And I remember at the time thinking like, oh, that’s sexy. Yeah.

Chris Voss:
10:43

I kinda like that. But then the list of skills that Harvard had was remarkably, vague, you know, unrefined, unclear. When you’re teaching negotiation skills in law enforcement, especially the local cops, I talk local cops a lot. You know? They’re practical group.

Chris Voss:
11:03

If you don’t define something quite clearly, which is really kinda Einstein thinking. I think Einstein said said, if you can’t explain something in plain English, you don’t understand. And I we took the FBI skills, and and we define them very specifically. A label is, it sounds like you’re angry. Each word is very specifically chosen.

Chris Voss:
11:29

You don’t say what I’m hearing is anger. You say it sounds like you’re anger. Quite clear, concise, and that would be one definition of a label. Harvard didn’t have that. And I think they just they, you know, they I don’t know what the hell they call it.

Chris Voss:
11:46

Quite frankly, I don’t I don’t remember. I think they talked about opening any questions. And even then, what I teach now, what my company teaches is is far more clear, concise, granular than that. Then if you take these 9 skills and you practice applying them, each one does kind of a different thing. And, you know, your original question was authenticity.

Chris Voss:
12:11

It might be the skill for the moment, whether you you use a label. It sounds like this has hurt you deeply. Or when they just say to you, you know, I’m really upset. I’ve been very frustrated. And to mirror that would be to say, very frustrating.

Chris Voss:
12:27

There’s an emphasis on repetition of the words. There’s also, a nuance too and turn out. That’s our 9th skill, turn out. So what it really is for authenticity is just practice. Usually, when people are fed back, you know, the the wife doesn’t like it.

Chris Voss:
12:44

The colleague doesn’t want like it. You know? They they they react like they’re using a skill, and it’s only a matter of practice. And with with enough practice and intention, intention as a smile. As long as your intention is to really talk with people, then you get to practice in in any authenticity thing will be solved.

Mike Hardenbrook:
13:05

No. I love that. And the mirroring thing I need to get a little bit better at because as an interviewer, that’s a way for me to draw more information out of guests as they maybe talk about a subject that I’d like to draw more out of, but I don’t have more questions after that. So it’s a good way to just elaborate more, and I’m constantly trying to remind myself of it, and you just reminded me of it here.

Chris Voss:
13:29

That’s practice. I mean, it’s it’s just a matter of practice. I’m I’m I’m a big believer in nurture, which is pretty much we’re very much a blank slate and we’re born, and everything really is learned. And so you can write it. Anybody can if they’re open to it.

Mike Hardenbrook:
13:45

I mean, I think that’s reassuring to hear that that you think as an expert that everything can be learned, that it’s not all natural born because then we can just continue to get better and better without feeling like maybe we were limited by what we were given.

Chris Voss:
13:59

1000%. You know? You can’t you can’t grow past a certain height. You know? I always wanted to as a kid, I wanted to be an NBA player.

Chris Voss:
14:07

I always wanted to be 67. I thought 67 was a magic number. You know? I I, my my body stopped going at about 6 feet. So other than that, maybe that’s why, you know, this line of work was better for me.

Chris Voss:
14:22

Yeah.

Mike Hardenbrook:
14:22

I can identify. I remember being a kid on our driveway shooting baskets after reading a story about Larry Bird that they used to set up a light at night, and I’d be like, I’m gonna be like Larry Bird and shoot shoot all night in practice, but I couldn’t make myself grow above 6 feet either.

Chris Voss:
14:36

Yeah. But even even Bert had some physical advantages then.

Mike Hardenbrook:
14:40

Yeah. Well, a lot of people that are listening are interested in cutting back on their alcohol, and I think a big part of that is the conversation negotiations that they have both in the home, out in social settings, and with themselves. And when somebody is gonna start a new big, change in their habits, whether it be diet or alcohol or maybe even changing their career, a big conversation of that starts in the home. How do you, see approaching your partner inside the home and say, hey. Listen.

Mike Hardenbrook:
15:12

I’m gonna make this change. I’m gonna start cutting back. Maybe this is like they’re your drinking partner. Maybe they don’t understand. Maybe they’re actually, like, against it.

Mike Hardenbrook:
15:23

Do you have, like, some thoughts on, like, some ways that we could approach like this? Maybe not a negotiation, but the conversation itself.

Chris Voss:
15:32

Oh, habits have momentum and to start with, but the conversation itself. If it’s a drinking partner or your social partner, think about what, you know, you know, what the objective is. You’re trying to have, established great relationship with one another. Trying to spend quality time. Trying to enjoy life together.

Chris Voss:
15:58

Agree on what the ultimate outcome is. And to change is, change all at once is scary. You know? You really kinda wanna you got into a bad situation a little at a time. I think, getting out of it a little at a time, it should be part of your strategy.

Chris Voss:
16:19

So what was your overall objective to begin with? Pick that up. Pick pick a point in time with the 2 of you can agree is is a is a goal of happiness for both of us. And then change change the root of how we get there. You know?

Chris Voss:
16:32

How do we work our way back from there? What what you know, what’s a healthier way so that we can get there and sustain it or have it more often or have it be even better? And, you know, that’s the starting point. If a collaboration agreement is, you know, how do we pick a spot in the future that we both, agree is cool, and then we work our way back? When I’m a hostage negotiator, I’m talking to a bank robber.

Chris Voss:
16:55

And I call him on the phone, and I would say, you know, hey. Just want you to know, there’s a SWAT team outside, and, if you don’t agree to go to jail, we’re gonna kill you. That’s not really the approach. What you’re doing is stupid. You know, the first line for hostage negotiators really is, I want you to live.

Chris Voss:
17:20

You know, that that’s picking a point in the future that we’re both good with. I’m looking for an outcome where you live. Now how we get there, is the challenge for us to navigate. View negotiation is to send it into navigation, great collaboration, getting ourselves together to a good spot. There’s gonna be some bumps in the road.

Chris Voss:
17:45

You know, let’s talk about how we get get someplace where we where we wanna be. And then, you know, implementation is a critical issue. There’s gonna be bumps in a road in in any given negotiation. I said a long time ago, yes is nothing without how. And now I actually say, yes is nothing.

Chris Voss:
18:03

How is everything? How do we how do we stay on track? How do we dress it when we fall off track? You and I have a business deal, an agreement for a great outcome in in our business life. Stuff’s gonna come up.

Chris Voss:
18:20

It’s gonna throw us. Pretending like we’re not gonna get thrown is crazy. It also causes us to be more unsettled when we do. Let’s talk about how we keep track, how we stay on track, and how we communicate when we’re off track, and how we address it. That’s a smart negotiation.

Chris Voss:
18:41

So here’s where I wanna go. You know, we need here are the components. You know, here are the 5 pillars to life. You know, sleep, diet, exercise, quality relationships, and spirituality. Well, we’re gonna make mistakes.

Chris Voss:
18:58

You know? How do we get back on track when we do? How do we continue to collaborate all the way through? Any agreement if you ignore that there’s gonna be problems, that’s just setting yourself to be fully thrown when there are. Oh, you didn’t, you know, you promised this, and you didn’t do that, and you didn’t tell me you know, when you run into problems without talking about implementation to a goal, thinking about it in advance, especially addressing the problems in the implementation, what happens when one site keeps really quiet and you start run to run into trouble.

Chris Voss:
19:33

And so then finally, you don’t find out about it till it’s been a problem for a while. So it’s it’s it’s a system thinking, implementation thinking to every step of the way and then the recognition that we’re human and for the stuff we’re just not gonna anticipate or, you know, we’re gonna fall back into a bad habit. You know, how do we pull ourselves, back up out of that? So it’s a net positive. We continue to move forward.

Chris Voss:
19:59

You know? There was I think there was a fraternity when I was in college that, you know, their philosophy was always forward, never straight.

Mike Hardenbrook:
20:10

Yeah. So so, for example, hearing what you just said, let’s say a couple, you know, we’re not talking like problematic. They just want to make healthier choices and they’re drinking, you know, a moderate amount of wine 4 to 5 nights a week with dinner or something. And the husband comes up and says, you know, I’ve been noticing I’ve been waking up a little more cloudy. My sleep’s been kinda crappy.

Mike Hardenbrook:
20:35

I’m gaining a little bit of weight. Thinking about cutting back so that my health can be better, my sleep can be better. And then the next step would be implementation, which would be like, hey. You know, I saw I saw this Sunnyside app that lets you track your drinking and you can, reduce and set goals. This is something that I’m thinking about doing.

Mike Hardenbrook:
20:57

So is that kinda like the working backwards strategy a little bit? Maybe not worded, of course, that way, but that’s what I’m kinda hearing. Right?

Chris Voss:
21:06

Yeah. Absolutely. You know? And, see the thing the thing like an app, a Sunnyside app Yeah. Anything that’s giving you feedback, will help you keep on track.

Chris Voss:
21:18

You start to pay attention. You start to get a little more, you know, competitive with yourself, whether you’re competitive or you’re ambitious. You know, in business, I’d like to say, you know, what what, you should measure what’s important, what’s measured keeps you conscious of it, and then which, measured and reported improves exponentially. So just in terms of being a human being, any any way at all that you keep on track of your health that starts to move you in the direction of improvement. And it’s kinda it’s actually kinda fun.

Chris Voss:
22:00

So the more you can keep track of it, you feel good about your improvement. Or when you when you slip a little and you notice you don’t feel as good, it’s it’s far easier to get back on track and continue to improve incrementally if you’ve got a way of reporting the stuff back to you. It’s just it’s it’s a smart move. It’s it’s it’s an insightful, effective way to actually get better. You’re not paying attention to the numbers, whatever it is.

Chris Voss:
22:33

You you’re you’re making it harder on yourself to get better than you need to. So any way that you can keep track and and an app that helps you keep track is always going to make your life easier, less stressful.

Mike Hardenbrook:
22:49

So well said. It it really is like, you know, what is it? What’s not measured doesn’t get done? I mean, I didn’t I probably slaughtered that. But, yeah, really, you know, like, I’m really cute I’m curious to ask you to take that point further.

Mike Hardenbrook:
23:04

So in the house, you know, you’re kind of in a more, well, hopefully, loving and accepting environment. Out in social settings, I think a lot people when they’re cutting back, they feel like they’re first of all, they’re gonna be, under a microscope, which is truly not the case because people really just are so about themselves that they’re not noticing what you’re drinking or how much or anything like that.

Chris Voss:
23:27

You know, I’m telling you that’s that’s that’s so true. I mean, they really don’t care. Yeah. They might make a crack, but assume they got ADHD, they’re gonna be on to the next sparkly shiny object. They just don’t care, because, you know, they’re struggling with their own issues.

Chris Voss:
23:50

You know, what’s that what’s that? I keep seeing this cartoon every now and then. On one side, you know, this person is distraught, and they go, nobody cares. And the flip side of it is they’re really happy, and they say, nobody cares.

Mike Hardenbrook:
24:06

As in it’s a good thing.

Chris Voss:
24:08

You know, there’s a liberation there.

Mike Hardenbrook:
24:10

Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely liberating when I I a few things I said to myself is nobody cares and, you know, you’re not as important as you, you know, you’re not so important that everybody’s gonna give you the focus right in the room all the time. You know? I mean, you not to take away from self important, but just to say back it off a little bit.

Mike Hardenbrook:
24:31

You don’t have to put so much pressure on yourself.

Chris Voss:
24:34

Yeah. You know what? You can experiment a little ways. I mean, you give me an idea today, you know, because sometimes I get ready to go to the gym. I’m like, you know, do I wear black socks?

Chris Voss:
24:45

Do I, you know, do I wear white socks? You know? I don’t remember what the social protocols are. And then I think, you know, nobody really cares what socks I wear. And, actually, when I go to the gym today, I’m gonna wear 1 black and one white just for the help.

Chris Voss:
25:01

And nobody’s gonna care.

Mike Hardenbrook:
25:05

I love it. Are you gonna do it?

Chris Voss:
25:08

Oh, yeah. You know, a 1000%. Because, you know, to some degree, we we everybody gets, you know, I get my head sometimes. You sometimes. You know?

Chris Voss:
25:16

The you know? What does somebody think of this? What does somebody you know? Especially when I go to the gym, like, big social situation, and they exist in our brain. Like, nobody gives nobody cares.

Chris Voss:
25:25

Nobody cares. And, you know, I’m like, you know, they wanna look cool. You know? Yeah. Nobody cares.

Chris Voss:
25:33

I’m gonna go and I’m gonna get my work after them. I’m gonna go one black, one white just just to prove you never.

Mike Hardenbrook:
25:39

Totally. I mean, people are so in their head. I’m so let’s say let’s just give I wanna get your feedback since I got the expert here, and maybe your answer to this question will be I don’t negotiate with terrorists. But, what if you have a friend that’s coming up and just keeps, you know, at you? Like, hey, come on.

Mike Hardenbrook:
25:57

Have a drink. You know, like, nah. Nah. Nah. Like, you know, not right now or I’m taking a break.

Mike Hardenbrook:
26:01

Nah. It’s only 1. Don’t worry about it. Like, don’t make me drink alone. All the typical kind of stuff.

Mike Hardenbrook:
26:07

Like, what would you what would your, like, reaction be to handling those kind of situations?

Chris Voss:
26:12

Well, I am, I I think life is this amazing prospect. I I the world is getting better on a regular basis. I think if you if you take an objective look at the data, that’s a 1000% correct. Like, there’s woe is me thing. But I’m I’m an optimistic human being.

Chris Voss:
26:35

Consequently, the idea of having an amazing life, I believe, is completely within my grasp. Consequently, the people around me are gonna have that impact. I believe simultaneously, you wanna go fast, go lean. You wanna go far, go as a team. I believe your income is the average of the 5 people in your inner circle.

Chris Voss:
27:02

I believe if you’re making more money than everybody in your inner circle, it’s wrong circle. Again, your question is, what if you got somebody that’s passing you all the time? That person is on the way out of my life. This this was was a hard thing for me to accept, and I came to it very late

Mike Hardenbrook:
27:23

in life.

Chris Voss:
27:24

About 5 ish years ago or so, I’m still teaching at, USC. Just before the book came out, I think. And I got a I got a guest lecturer, gentleman named Michael Levine, very, previously one of the most influential PR guys in the. So, Mike’s Michael’s not the type. I got him lecturing to the class on success, and he stands up in front of the class and says, fire your flaky friends.

Chris Voss:
28:04

Fire your flaky friends. And I remember thinking, oh, jeez. Yeah. That’s harsh. Now now this is after I’ve left the bureau, so I’m I’m 50 plus here.

Chris Voss:
28:17

I retired at 50. I got a lot of life, and I hadn’t really grabbed grasped that concept. But, you know, what if, you know, with the high school with what if I went to college with them? Yeah. What if we got these shared experiences that feel bonded to them?

Chris Voss:
28:36

I feel feel loyalty. Is that lack of loyalty there? Am I I don’t see myself as a disloyal person. And it just and, initially, I wasn’t willing to accept it. And now I’m a 1000% there.

Chris Voss:
28:52

You know, if if you’re

Mike Hardenbrook:
28:54

What changed that?

Chris Voss:
28:58

Possibly through the course of, my learning journey really, really post FBI. It lined up with another concept that, I learned, a business concept about core values. You know, what do I believe in this human being? Mhmm. What are the values that drive my life?

Chris Voss:
29:20

And, the business consultant a silicon consultant friend said, you’ll find that all your business or personal relationships succeed or fail based on alignment of core values. And if I’m success oriented, and I am, and the the delight in life oriented, I believe in having people whose values line up with mine. And so if they want me to engage in behaviors that are not healthy for me, because health is a core of mine Mhmm. Then we’re bad match. Not only are they a bad match for me, I’m a bad match for them.

Chris Voss:
29:58

I’m not helping them if I’m a bad match for them. I’m standing in the way of someone who could be helping me if I’m a bad match for them. And, you know, both of us need to move on. It’s It’s like being in a bad personal relationship. You’re standing in the way the person they should be with.

Chris Voss:
30:18

They should be spending time. The harsh reality of it is, if they’re not good for me, I’m not good for them. And then they own their journey. So I get somebody who’s constantly passing me to drink with them. The person’s gonna be on their way out of my life.

Mike Hardenbrook:
30:37

Yeah. It’s so true. I’ve I’ve sort of learned that in my own kind of way. And sometimes when I, I guess you’d say give more grace, sometimes it really does come back to bite you and and realize now I I need to stick to being with people that align with with my values and where I’m going.

Chris Voss:
30:58

And you’re not good for them either. I mean, some of it it it’s a it’s a bad match. You know, we’re not a good if we’re not living healthy together, then some some kind of way I’m getting in that way too.

Mike Hardenbrook:
31:13

So instead of, like, let’s let me think of something here as a as a scenario to this. So, like, let’s say you’re sharing with a friend over lunch that, you know, you’re taking a break, and the conversation is not that they’re trying to get you to drink, but the conversation is probing, questioning, and not in that positive inquisitive way, but more like maybe you have a problem. Maybe they’re a judgment. Maybe they’re just doing, like, some psychological, you know, like, poking at you. But you don’t want to say like at that dinner or lunch, we don’t whine.

Mike Hardenbrook:
31:49

I’m just gonna leave and maybe like, you know, they were having a moment. How do you deal with that scenario? I think is the first question. And then do you give it some time to see if it keeps recurring before sort of, like, you know, fire your flaky friend?

Chris Voss:
32:04

Well, it it the question behind the question is always more important than the question being asked.

Mike Hardenbrook:
32:10

Mhmm.

Chris Voss:
32:11

You know, what are they struggling with? Somebody asked me a question that, you know, I I I’m failing both of us if I don’t find out what’s what’s driving the question in the first place. I think there’s an entire book out there called the question behind the question. It is it’s so important. What’s driving?

Chris Voss:
32:29

And they actually they’ll feel better than interacting with me if I get at what’s driving me. I mean, that was one of the things from way back on the suicide hotline. You know, get at what’s driving. You know? What what in in the in the window pane of their mind is are they blind to that they’re being driven by?

Chris Voss:
32:53

What are they hiding that they’re being driven by that they wish we could see, that they are afraid to open it up to us. You know, the suicide how I was really driving at war is getting at, unearthing, helping them gain insight into those those 2 window panes. What are they blind to that’s driving? What are they hiding that’s driving? People love you to discover what they’re hiding because they’re afraid that you’d be judgmental.

Chris Voss:
33:22

You know, the hotline was about observational is by definition nonjudgmental. And that’s that’s one of the lines between empathy and sympathy and compassion. There’s a certain amount of judgment taking sides on sympathy and compassion. Compassion is you’re trying to get into the rescuers role in some sense, which is frequently not that good because if if they need you to rescue them, their help is by themselves, and they’ll always be lost. So find out what’s driving the question.

Chris Voss:
33:56

And it’s gonna be something feedback from as simple as, well, I should ask. What’s, what’s driving us? What are you struggling? You know, there’s a variety of ways to gently. It’s usually gonna be a what or how question.

Chris Voss:
34:14

What and how questions are gonna feel differential. People are far more open to that. And use what or how to drive it. What is a person really trying to communicate with you by probing you, by asking you those questions?

Mike Hardenbrook:
34:32

Yes. So good. Because I actually did quite a bit of research. And so I actually wrote a book on helping people, and part of that was helping people with alcohol. And part of that was dealing with social situations and and pushing back from others.

Mike Hardenbrook:
34:48

And I the fortunate thing is that I think that society is starting to shift that narrative right now and that it’s becoming more accepting and realizing now called, might not be the the greatest thing for us. And that just because you wanna take a step back doesn’t mean that you have a major problem. You’re just it’s the same thing as, like, maybe I’m not gonna eat as much French fries and hamburgers. You know. I’m I still might eat them, but I’m not gonna eat as many,

Chris Voss:
35:12

you know. It’s a yeah. It’s a simple health choice. Right? It’s a it’s a

Mike Hardenbrook:
35:15

Exactly.

Chris Voss:
35:16

Joy of life choice.

Mike Hardenbrook:
35:18

Yeah. And and part of that is, like, if you do encounter that, it really isn’t a reflection on you. It’s a reflection on them. You know, there are many things like if they’re not drinking, then it makes me think about my drinking and maybe I feel bad about my drinking already or maybe, you know, if like a fraternity or maybe it’s a mom’s group, you know, like all of a sudden there’s that tribe mentality. Maybe you’re not part of our tribe.

Mike Hardenbrook:
35:43

You’re not one of us anymore. And and that really doesn’t have anything to do with the individual.

Chris Voss:
35:49

Right. Right. It’s it’s their sense of belonging, so to speak. It’s at stake.

Mike Hardenbrook:
35:54

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that, like, having these negotiations with people where maybe many people are, like, very, timid or scared to have these conversations, but they end up just having them anyways, and they they take some structure. They listen to Chris Voss and his, strategies, and they go in and they start having them. And maybe they don’t feel like they win, but they feel like they went the way they wanted them to.

Mike Hardenbrook:
36:23

Do you think that that sets people up long term for success in the goals that they’re they’re discussing in general?

Chris Voss:
36:30

Yeah. I think it’s an incremental. I think I think we we really kinda kick our own ass by setting, big short term goals. You know, it’s a phrase, and so many of them are cliche. We we overestimate what we can get done in a year.

Chris Voss:
36:45

We underestimate what we can get done in 10. I think there’s people trying to get too far too fast. You get that little at a time. And then if you have a bad day, if your goal is just to get a better a little bit better today, and you miss it. You’re like, alright.

Chris Voss:
37:04

So, you know, I’m I’m not I’m not set back that far. I was just trying to get one degree, but, you know, we spend a lot of time kicking our own ass, which is a tremendous waste of time. Yes. I’m try I’m trying to coach a guy in my company who was just not learning, And he kept making the same mistake over and over again. And he looked at me one day, and he said, you know, I’m I’m really really kicking myself right now.

Chris Voss:
37:32

And the reality of the situation, I said to him, was like, get the opportunity to make one move right now and take a step forward over that same amount of effort. You can keep yourself. I prefer you took a step forward. It’s not a lot. But any time spent kicking your own ass, could have been time just taking a baby step forward instead.

Chris Voss:
37:55

Look at where you’re at. Kick kicking your ass doesn’t do anybody any good. It doesn’t do you any good.

Mike Hardenbrook:
38:02

Yeah. The self talk is so important, and I see it all the time, and it hurts me to see it, you know, when especially around alcohol. People post things on Facebook in groups like, oh, I slipped up yesterday. I’m pathetic or, you know, I’m weak and all these things, and that just really doesn’t serve an individual.

Chris Voss:
38:21

No. It doesn’t. It doesn’t. Call calling yourself names doesn’t help. Self self labeling your negative emotions is actually, very helpful.

Chris Voss:
38:32

And what do I mean by that? Sounds like you’re scared. It it’s okay. It don’t say to yourself, don’t be afraid. If you’ve got a fear, if you got a concern, if you got something holding you back, say out loud three times.

Chris Voss:
38:47

I’m scared. I’m scared. I’m scared. Every time you say that, the fear goes away a little bit, and I find I do this myself. By the time I say it the 3rd or 4th time, I’ll let then I’ll literally say, fuck it.

Chris Voss:
39:02

I’m not scared. You know, you can you can make you can deal with your negative emotions by just calling them.

Mike Hardenbrook:
39:09

I’ve never done that. I’m gonna start trying it, though.

Chris Voss:
39:12

Give it

Mike Hardenbrook:
39:12

a try.

Chris Voss:
39:13

Yeah. I’d give it a try.

Mike Hardenbrook:
39:15

Well, you know, I think this actually leads into another question that I had really well, and that is about habit change specifically here, you know, for those listening that are trying to change their habits around alcohol. How do we negotiate it with ourselves? Maybe we’re negotiating. Why am I doing this? Maybe we’re doing negotiating is it’s not that big a deal.

Mike Hardenbrook:
39:34

I’m gonna break my commitment today, or I’m not strong enough to do it. Like, how how can we use your expertise in negotiations with ourselves? How do we negotiate with ourselves?

Chris Voss:
39:49

Yep. Alright.

Mike Hardenbrook:
39:50

So here’s, Yep.

Chris Voss:
39:54

Alright. So here’s, what I’ve been asking everybody that I’m talking to lately that’s listening to me at all. Switching the system thing. Everything is a system. The system is perfectly designed to give you the outcome that you’ve obtained.

Chris Voss:
40:10

What does this have to do with negotiating with yourself? Change one small behavior. You know, what is it? Insanity is, repeating the same behavior expecting a different result. Yep.

Chris Voss:
40:24

Start tweaking the system. You you don’t you don’t have to negotiate with yourself to to do something big. Pick a tweak in the system. Just agree on something small within the system of how you cope with the day. What’s the first thing you do when you get up in the morning?

Chris Voss:
40:42

Well, your morning is set up by last night. So how do I set up tomorrow? How much coffee do I drink? You know, how much how much do I stress myself out throughout the course of the day work? The alcohol is is a way to alleviate stress.

Chris Voss:
41:00

What are my circadian rhythms? Am I am I am I caffeinated my way all through the day? And so then by the end of the day, I could have a drink at the end of the night just just to let go all the tension, the cortisol that built up through the course of the day. And everything that you do accumulates in one way or another. So if you if you wanna negotiate with yourself, pick something small that seems innocuous, but it’s probably gonna have a rolling effect throughout your day.

Chris Voss:
41:32

And don’t ask too much of yourself from the very beginning. Pick something low, and then give yourself a small win. And we interpret anything as a victory. A lot a lot of this is, do I have a task or to dos, or do I have a list of opportunities? And when I get anything done, do I consider this alright.

Chris Voss:
41:55

So I just I got rid of one more task, or do I or I take it as effective? There’s all sorts of ways to reinterpret what we’re doing through the day. When when I get something done, if, you know, if I need to look myself up on a piece of paper, I’ll handwrite it. Handwriting is better than typing. Victims took out the trash.

Chris Voss:
42:19

Is it Victor? Start thinking about how you’re reinterpreting the simple things in your life to prop yourself up in little ways and build the system so that you’re not so much negotiating with yourself. You’re creating a success system that’s gonna carry you so that you’re not fighting yourself.

Mike Hardenbrook:
42:40

In negotiation, do you think it’s better to reframe what you can’t have to what you do get in in instead? So for example, for alcohol, like, I can’t drink tonight because I promised myself. Instead of saying, like, you know what? I’m not gonna drink tonight because I I’m gonna wake up really early tomorrow and feel really good and go for a run, something like that.

Chris Voss:
43:04

Yeah. Or or you think about when you when you wanna have a drink, you’re thinking about how you’re gonna feel right after you have a drink, whatever alcohol hit. You’re focused on a point in the future where you feel bad. If you wanna get up early in the morning and the fact that you’re not having a drink makes you feel better first thing in the morning, that’s a point in time to picking your head to envision the outcome. Vision drives decision.

Chris Voss:
43:32

Envision yourself feeling better and more rested when you get up in the morning. It’s gonna get you past the point of stress right now.

Mike Hardenbrook:
43:43

Yeah. Incredible. Chris, I love where this interview is going because I know it’s really a different take on what things that you’ve, you know, applying this in the context of alcohol was a little bit challenging. I’m not gonna lie. Like, I thought, you know, I would love to talk to Chris, and I know that you can bring value and you did.

Mike Hardenbrook:
44:02

And so I’m really, like, excited about that. I wanna ask you, what is something that you’re working on right now that you’re, like, really passionate about? And I I’d love to learn more about that.

Chris Voss:
44:15

Well, all of it. I mean, we’re, we’re having a great time. I’m a I’m gonna point out 2 things, and the people that we’re coaching and training. So first of all, the website’s blackswanltd.com. Blackswanltd.com.

Chris Voss:
44:31

When you go there, we’re gonna ask you to subscribe to our newsletter. You know? A box will pop up. It gives you negotiation advice on, that you get an email on Tuesday morning. It’s one single concise article, usable, action, compliment.

Chris Voss:
44:49

Now this also keeps you up on what we’re doing through the course of the year. You’ll find out what we’re pulling together for people. In the fall, we’re gonna have a conference just for women. Women in negotiation, instructors are women. The attendees are just gonna be women.

Chris Voss:
45:06

They don’t even let me go. And you get to talk about the challenges of life for women. We’ve got live in person training events scattered throughout the year. They’re expensive. But to get your habits going so that you realize the investment in yourself is worth it and you get the return on your investment.

Chris Voss:
45:31

You start with subscribing to the edge and gather your momentum a little at a time. Now if you’re working independently, residential real estate agents, we just had a conference in LA last week. I gave away my own personal 2023 Chevy Traverse So the person at the conference that had the best story for how the black swan skills changed their life. Young lady came up to the front conference. We announced it at the end of the 2 days, and she broke into tears talking about the changes in her life came as a result of the use of the black swan skills.

Chris Voss:
46:21

The next day, we dropped my 2023 Chevy Traverse off at her house, And I’m looking forward to doing that again next year. You come to your residential real estate and we had a lot of people that want residential real estate agents. Our negotiation training is so good. They just came to the conference because it was it was a great price, and they wanted a shot at the at my truck. And we’re gonna do it again next year.

Chris Voss:
46:50

I get I get to pick out what truck I’m gonna drive around for a year. It’s always gonna be red. I love red, you know, sexy red color. But I’m looking forward to doing that again next year. And then and then when you get involved in our training, you get into a tribe.

Chris Voss:
47:06

The tribe that you were talking about before, this is a mutually reinforcing success oriented life enjoying, reducing the stress tribe where everybody’s having a great time, enjoying their life, and making more money at the same time?

Mike Hardenbrook:
47:26

Oh, I fully, am following what you’re doing. So I think it’s amazing, and I can endorse that because I’m on your mailing list as well. I love all that you’re doing. I posted about doing our interview on my personal, social accounts, and I can tell you that, like no other interview. And I’ve done some high profile interviews, and everybody just came to just say how impactful your work is.

Chris Voss:
47:51

That’s cool. I’m really happy to hear that.

Mike Hardenbrook:
47:53

And and I looked over your book recently just to get some more info on Amazon and having being an author. You know, I sold quite a few copies and you only get about maybe, like, 2% reviews back in review or something like that, you know, like, from sales. And you have 42,000 reviews on your Amazon book, which is just, like, blows my mind. It’s incredible. And all 4.7 or something like that overall.

Chris Voss:
48:22

Yeah. Yeah. I’m happy with the impact that it’s had. It’s been very satisfying. Very gratifying.

Mike Hardenbrook:
48:28

Well, I couldn’t even imagine. So do you I’m just curious for my own, benefit. Do you are you thinking about another book?

Chris Voss:
48:37

We we’ve been trying you know, we’ve done we’ve actually done several collaboration books where I’ve contributed a chapter and other people are contributing chapters. You know, what the next book looks like that, that’s just gonna be focused on my philosophy as a couple of years are.

Mike Hardenbrook:
48:53

Now that would be exciting. I’ll definitely grab a copy or, maybe maybe if you have to send out advanced review copies, you know, you keep me on that list.

Chris Voss:
49:03

There you go. Amen. Yeah.

Mike Hardenbrook:
49:05

Well, hey. I wanna give you the mic, one last time to share anything that you’d like to as parting words.

Chris Voss:
49:13

Yeah. Wherever you are, just get a little bit better at a time. Take it easy on yourself. You can do it. It’s all learned.

Chris Voss:
49:27

It’s been the people you you can do it. You got it in. You were born. You can do it.

Mike Hardenbrook:
49:35

Yes. 100% agree with that. Chris, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate your time today, and thanks for sharing.

Chris Voss:
49:42

My my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Mike Hardenbrook:
49:50

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Mike Hardenbrook:
50:22

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